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Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
Asides from scholarships, work-study, and internships, one should also consider getting out of his comfort zone to study overseas.

The vast majority of American in poverty have:
99% have electricity, water, toilet & refrigerator
95% have a television
88% have a mobile phone
70% have a car & air conditioning

The Rational Optimist, Matt Ridley

So worst comes to worst, you may do this:

First world problems, eh?

ILoveCreampuffs wrote: First world problems, eh?

Not exclusively, but having all that doesn't sound so bad.

A first world economy with third world problems

MikeyC wrote: A first world economy with third world problems

how ironic eyy

Why am I so sexy?

Here are my thoughts -- Genghis Khan didn't know how to read or write, and yet he conquered the most learned cultures in the world at the time -- The Middle East and China.

Education has reached borderline religious status and it's not good. The fact is, most people don't know how to evaluate a person's intelligence properly, and thus use the school they attended as a proxy to estimate it. However, when people are spending some of the potentially most productive years of their life -- years where they can be doing useful things for our economy -- in what is essentially an intelligence estimation generator, that's going to contribute to economic decline.

The fact is, college is only going to give a positive return to our economy at large for really smart people -- people who can actually take the complex formulas and concepts they learn in school and apply it to real-life situations. When most people get a job, they learn on-the-job anyway, and 95% of what they learned in school goes out the window. Broken system is broken.

PS I went to one of the best colleges in the USA.

MikeyC wrote: You know many of those "irresponsible" students were people who majored in worthwhile majors like biology, environmental engineering, chemistry.. etc...

You say things like "pointless" liberal arts major but quite the opposite is true. Many people's lives and careers are determined by the salary they make, which can ultimately lead to people doing things they don't like very much. And if you think the salaries in America fit the quality and value of a job than you are sadly mistaking. Sometimes people do pursue a career that is actually worthwhile and it's quite judge mental of you to assume that hardworking people who are in a rut are irresponsible. Some things just have an effect on the market that ordinary people can not control, and usually those ordinary people are hit the hardest.

Now I don't agree with completely erasing student loan debts; however, I think there is a huge problem in the American education system, especially public schools, that really degrades our education, and money is part of the problem.

Basically to sum up my points

1) People can't pursue what they want because paying back loans largely determines career choice; therefore, degrading the quality/passion of professions in America

2) The pay doesn't always fit the value of the job. For an example, public teachers, even though our public education sucks, you would think be payed decently considering they educate our children.

3) You can prepare all you want for the future and save all the money you like but it doesn't mean squat when you get laid off because the economy is terrible or you don't happen to find a job because there has been a boom in that area.


Also side note, in some of the best educated countries AND most productive/efficient, college education is significantly cheaper or even free. I'm sure that this has much to do with their success in education and productivity in a rapidly growing world but sadly Americans would shrug off such a repulsively disgusting ideas because they would have to pay higher taxes (T.T) and risk our freedom being compensated for such evil social ideas

They are irresponsible because they didn't take into consideration the possibility of say not finding a job at their expected salary or not finding a job at all. Having contingency plans counts for something, no?

Assigned reading: monevator.com/2012/0...-to-university/

News flash: most people work in jobs they aren't passionate about. And jobs that often engender passion charge a heavy negative wage premium (e.g. global public health jobs because of the fuzzy altruistic feelings they inspire in people).

North Dakota is having a huge labour shortage in the oil/gas industry, as well as the supportive structures built around that working population (e.g. McDonalds with $18/hr wages, strip clubs with $2000 per night gigs). I don't see these oh so poor students moving there to work. Are they that serious about making money or do they just want a free lunch?

Oh, same thing with Western Australia and the metal mines. $200K for experienced and dedicated miners. Anyone heading over there?

1) Well too bad for them. If you can't bother to get up for your job that you're lucky to have right now, some hard working immigrant is just going to snatch it up.

2) Public school teachers are overpaid once you take into account the generous retirement plans, time off, and gold-plated health plans. They're the reason states like CA and NJ are going bankrupt. Public education sucks because there's no pressure from standardized tests putting pressure on teachers and holding them accountable. Oh, and measures of that are done in aggregate, meaning the vast #s of poor people drag down the scores. Taking into account demographics, US scores would be quite competitive with SK's, HK's, Finland's, or Shanghai's.

3) See my earlier discussion about jobs in other places. Sometimes you have to take a job in a different area. It's not that big of a deal. My parents moved around *the world* every 4 years in pursuit of a job or a better job.

Not completely. The best educated countries have cultural expectations on people to be productive (not a drain on state resources) and educated. See Confucian norms in East Asia and how much kids go to cram school (on their parents' dime!). In immigrant enclaves like Vancouver, Toronto, and SF Bay Area, kids go to prep classes after school from day 1. Walk into your local Kaplan, Kumon, or local shop and see how many Asians are there. Likewise with Finland. Amazingly in a country with such a generous social safety net, there is a huge stigma against being dependent on it.

Contrast that with the US where there is a huge swath of the population that lives and likes to live off of transfer payments. The poverty trap (decreasing benefits with moderate salary) keeps many of them in poverty.

ILoveCreampuffs wrote: Over $100k of student loans to go to NYU as an English major might not be the wisest investment. The higher education system in the US is pretty ****ed up, though. Loan forgiveness might be a stretch, but it's pretty bad when the tuition from your public universities have increased 3x in the past decade. Where the chancellors keep their perks and pay, yet they cut 1/3rd of non-tenured professors. It reminds me of the US Congress where they vote for pay raises and benefits... for themselves.

Not to say that cutting back on their pay alone would right the ship, but there's a certain level of irony there...

Having thought about the reasons for such expensive education for a while, I think it's driven hugely by unlimited demand. When you give people unconstrained resources (in terms of borrowing capacity), they'll bid each other up for a resource seen as infallibly important. The solution is not to offer more debt or to waive that debt, but to stop being so free with lending.

The government got into mortgage loans and that caused a bubble. Now the same thing is happening with government involvement in education loans.

As we saw with housing, once people had to gamble with their *own money* on the outcomes of something, they became much more judicious with spending. Inflated prices for housing then came down.

The same thing will happen to education. We need schools to compete with each other on price and offer a more bare bones education environment (no fancy student union, gym, gold-plated stadiums, expensive housing) reflective of their actual worth.

It's come down to my recommending to my brother, who is about to graduate HS, that he think hard about not going to a 4 year university unless it's for certain degrees (accounting, finance, CS, petroleum engineering). 2 year degrees are much more cost-effective given how much they've been neglected and scorned by "upwardly mobile" households.

MagicMarker wrote: 2) Public school teachers are overpaid once you take into account the generous retirement plans, time off, and gold-plated health plans. They're the reason states like CA and NJ are going bankrupt. Public education sucks because there's no pressure from standardized tests putting pressure on teachers and holding them accountable. Oh, and measures of that are done in aggregate, meaning the vast #s of poor people drag down the scores. Taking into account demographics, US scores would be quite competitive with SK's, HK's, Finland's, or Shanghai's.

Finally. I've been saying this for years every single time someone tells me how "hard" it is to be a teacher. Yeah, I'm sure it's hard keeping control of 30+ kids, teaching them material, grading and testing. However, that's part of the job, and if you're a good teacher and can manage your time properly, then you should be able to get all that work done with little to no overtime put in.

I have a friend who is a 3rd grade teacher. She complains over how bad teachers are paid. I laugh in her face because she posts pictures of her going to theme parks on her numerous days off. I mean, really? You've got a freaking union looking out for your back, don't complain about "crappy pay." Not to mention unless she teaches summer school, she's getting the whole summer off, teacher "work days" and winter break- during which time I know she travels to other countries. Seems like a pretty cushy job to me.

3) See my earlier discussion about jobs in other places. Sometimes you have to take a job in a different area. It's not that big of a deal. My parents moved around *the world* every 4 years in pursuit of a job or a better job.

The thing is Marker, not everyone has the money or ability to just pick up and go. Employers won't hire you right now if you aren't local- unless they desperately need you because you're specialized or something. I would love to move to a different location, but I wouldn't do so without a firm job offer in place first. I personally don't have the finances to blow half my savings to move cross-country with no promise that I'll be able to secure a job in the new location (with a higher cost of living). It's just not reasonable.

Some of my friends think I'm overly cautious because I do have a good deal of savings and no student debt. I'm just not willing to take such risks in the current economic climate, so sue me. Other students coming out of college have huge debts. So on top of moving costs, they'd be making payments toward those loans they took out. If they can't find a "career" fast enough they will have to work some (or multiple) minimum wage paying job just to make ends meet.

That is another problem, wages. I have friends who found "careers" but they are not making what you'd think. There's something to be said for a kid with a bachelors degree who is working for say, $10 an hour. It's a big slap to the face if you have a college education. You put all that time and money into getting a degree only to be right back where you started, but now with a huge amount of debt. In some cases it'd be better to take some random job right out of high school and work enough years to reach manager status or something over going to college. Making $15 an hour doesn't get you much when you have to buy food, pay car insurance, rent, utilities, gas, student loans...

The same thing will happen to education. We need schools to compete with each other on price and offer a more bare bones education environment (no fancy student union, gym, gold-plated stadiums, expensive housing) reflective of their actual worth.

It's come down to my recommending to my brother, who is about to graduate HS, that he think hard about not going to a 4 year university unless it's for certain degrees (accounting, finance, CS, petroleum engineering). 2 year degrees are much more cost-effective given how much they've been neglected and scorned by "upwardly mobile" households.

That's totally my uni. They get sooooo much money. What do they do with it? Plant f**king palm trees around campus. I don't give a sh-- about palm trees. I give a crap about the useless teacher who isn't giving me the education I expected for what I'm paying. Why do we need a brand new alumni building? Who the crap uses it? I've found my community college has a lot more teachers who are passionate for what they do and helping their students succeed. My uni is full of teachers who are sitting on tenure, who should be seriously re-evaluated.

Anyway, my mother showed me this article last night after I told her my friend was ragging on me for not wanting to blow my life savings to "live a little" in a new area or backpack around the world.
Link

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bentobeatbox wrote: Finally. I've been saying this for years every single time someone tells me how "hard" it is to be a teacher. Yeah, I'm sure it's hard keeping control of 30+ kids, teaching them material, grading and testing. However, that's part of the job, and if you're a good teacher and can manage your time properly, then you should be able to get all that work done with little to no overtime put in.

I have a friend who is a 3rd grade teacher. She complains over how bad teachers are paid. I laugh in her face because she posts pictures of her going to theme parks on her numerous days off. I mean, really? You've got a freaking union looking out for your back, don't complain about "crappy pay." Not to mention unless she teaches summer school, she's getting the whole summer off, teacher "work days" and winter break- during which time I know she travels to other countries. Seems like a pretty cushy job to me.

Lol... yeah. In med school we're all taught to go find teachers as partners cuz they have oodles of free time to take care of kids, stuff around the house, and random errands.

And in ugrad I got it from a polisci teacher who said she attended a teacher's union event where the keynote speaker said, "We have Gray Davis in our pocket."

And so the revenue gains from the .com era went to pay inflated perks for union workers, things that have proved exceedingly hard to roll back when revenue collapsed. Thing is, they fought tooth and nail to keep their benefits, never even once thinking of rolling anything back even if the state is crumbling.

The thing is Marker, not everyone has the money or ability to just pick up and go. Employers won't hire you right now if you aren't local- unless they desperately need you because you're specialized or something. I would love to move to a different location, but I wouldn't do so without a firm job offer in place first. I personally don't have the finances to blow half my savings to move cross-country with no promise that I'll be able to secure a job in the new location (with a higher cost of living). It's just not reasonable.

Some of my friends think I'm overly cautious because I do have a good deal of savings and no student debt. I'm just not willing to take such risks in the current economic climate, so sue me. Other students coming out of college have huge debts. So on top of moving costs, they'd be making payments toward those loans they took out. If they can't find a "career" fast enough they will have to work some (or multiple) minimum wage paying job just to make ends meet.

That is another problem, wages. I have friends who found "careers" but they are not making what you'd think. There's something to be said for a kid with a bachelors degree who is working for say, $10 an hour. It's a big slap to the face if you have a college education. You put all that time and money into getting a degree only to be right back where you started, but now with a huge amount of debt. In some cases it'd be better to take some random job right out of high school and work enough years to reach manager status or something over going to college. Making $15 an hour doesn't get you much when you have to buy food, pay car insurance, rent, utilities, gas, student loans...

I hear you tuxy. That's definitely why there's a regional imbalance in unemployment. Some people are stuck, whether it's because of a house they can't sell or what, and just can't move to where the jobs are without a firm offer. Is it really that bad in your area? Luckily things are picking up a bit around the country and hopefully you'll be able to land a great job in your desired location. Where are you thinking of moving to? If it's advertising and a high COL place I'm thinking NYC?

Wow. I'm impressed. It's rare to see an American student who hasn't racked up loads of debt. Good for you. Yeah, I totally get the cautious nature. Similarly, I want to be cash flow positive whenever I can.

Yeah, I get that there are many (most?) bachelor degrees that don't pay off. It's the stupid signaling demands from employers who are too lazy to weed out talent through interviews. So they impose an arbitrary education requirement that's led to credential inflation. Same thing is happening for nursing (BSN is getting to be minimum req now) and pharmacy (moved up to doctorate degree).

That's why I harp on to young people today to carefully evaluate their career path. Getting into a trade is not that bad (despite public perception). You incur less debt, start investing earlier, and often go into a neglected field. It's amazing what carpenters, electricians, and plumbers can charge because there's just no competition from young people entering the field.

Ending note: someone on MR said that the whole 53% thing should be termed " The revenge of the one marshmallow kids ".