EDUCATION REFORM ANYONE?

Whatusername wrote:

JackOfAllTrades wrote: And I didn't mean get rid of all education (please re-read my post), addition, subtraction, multiplication, division - yes, all are necessary. Spelling, composition, vocabulary, etc. - of course. Astronomy, physics - duh! But my problem is with the even more advanced academics (algebra, geometry, chemistry, oceanography, etc.), why is it that we're so much more focused on this than our career field/major (for college) or how about high school, why is it that we're more focused on these advanced subjects than how to survive and be a productive member of society?

Chemistry, so you know
-why water evaporates, why you sweat, why putting salt on a cold day melts the ice
-why energy cannot be created out of nowhere so you don't waste your time trying
-why you can't uncook an egg

Oceanography, so you know
-about plate tectonics, why earthquake happens and where they happen
-why throwing your trash in the ocean is a bad idea
-why water in some places is warmer than other
-why you shouldn't fuck with salmons when they're traveling back to spawn

Biology, so you know
-why dumping oil and toxic waste down the drain is a bad idea
-why having plants at home is good or why plants are good in general so you don't cut down every tree you see for wood
-why the ecology works the way it does and why hunting a species to extinction is uhh bad.

And you just called algebra and geometry advance academics...

Basically it's so your average person, or average college grad don't think things happen because of gods. I cannot believe this is happening. You actually want people to be less educated and be more specialized so they're even more fucked when not in their workplace.

School isn't meant to teach you everything. It's meant to give you a foundation and teach you how to learn.

i like this... definitely agree... "education" does present us with cognitive attributes to problem solve, roughly...

part in bold... i wouldn't consider anybody "fucked"... you just can't bullshit about "-why you can't uncook an egg" or "-why you shouldn't fuck with salmons when they're traveling back to spawn". interestingly enough... i only learned about a hand full of what you listed. LAUSD at it's finest.

support wrote:
part in bold... i wouldn't consider anybody "fucked"... you just can't bullshit about "-why you can't uncook an egg" or "-why you shouldn't fuck with salmons when they're traveling back to spawn". interestingly enough... i only learned about a hand full of what you listed. LAUSD at it's finest.

K, it's not a biggie if people don't know how egg is cooked. But other things I've listed, biological and environmental things, they do matter if a population does not know them. The main reason China has such high pollution level, land erosion due to all the trees being cut down, and extincted many species is the general population outside of cities is not as well educated.

To add to what a lot of people are saying, skills like Math are not easy to learn with Google. As a Math major in college, I find reading textbooks extremely difficult, since there are just numbers, equations, and sequences of equations that confuse the hell out of me - like how did this equation become that one? For Math, having a teacher is important. And it helps you quantify things, which can help you save time and make better decisions. For example, what's the point of knowing bank loans and tax returns if you can't even do math? And if you think simple operation is enough, how will you understand what the equations mean? How will you be able to pay tip if you don't know how to calculate x% of your bill? In a world with improving technology, math is very useful if you understand it.

giuseppina wrote:

JackOfAllTrades wrote:

giuseppina wrote: I am not trying to offend you, but you sound extremely ignorant. I don't think anyone has to be educated by a teacher to know what "income taxes" are...or even what a "down payment" is. I am positive that school has taught you how to use a dictionary... If you had common sense and listened in school, you would know that taxes play a fundamental role in a country's economy. Furthermore, how hard is it to calculate taxes? Basic elementary school mathematics. I have 10 apples, but there are only 3 remaining. How many apple did I eat? Oh wait, "x+y=z" is too hard for you. Sorry if I am being harsh, but it's sad seeing someone criticizing a school system, while they lack common sense.

Funny how the same could be said for YOUR argument - no offense intended as well. My emphasis isn't so much as the simple skills of deducting from one's own account or taxes, but of what we can learn in order to know what we qualify for or how my rights as a citizen may nullify a new law that brings in a new tax law, etc. Do believe me, I knew what a down payment was when in high school, however...the same cannot be said for many of my younger alma mater colleagues. And yes, while we were taught about the importance of taxation, at the same time, we were not taught which we were qualified for when we got out, if we were single, if we had kids, if we had more than one job, etc. Let me ask you this, with all this knowledge, all this experience in such advanced academics, why is it that I have to go visit (and PAY) a CPA consultant in order to help me get a better deal on my tax returns? Why is it that I didn't know that by law, I could not miss a jury summons (at least not with the government knowing that I had a steady job and a vehicle available for 24/7 transportation)? Why is it that I didn't know how to voice my opinion on some legislative matters while I just sat there cursing out at them for raising the sales taxes here where I live?
What I find even more sad is someone blindly following a path set for them already by someone else in the education system, what is more sad is that some will actually just open their gullet and just say "yes, sir" and do as instructed when they won't even question whether they're being duped out of their money or simply used as the Department of Education's aristocratic amusement...again, no offense and not trying to be harsh.

I totally agree with your view now, thanks for clarifying your point. However, that's another topic; companies or the government finding ways to get money out of your pocket.

@Whatusername, I love you. Amen.

It's funny because anyone can take the CPA exam and be certified, pretty much ALL district courts have websites that allow anyone to access information about jury duty, and it's REALLY easy to (e-)mail a letter to your state representative to voice your concerns (whether they're respond is a different story), so...your point still has merit.

I just find it funny that a Film Major is huffing and puffing about non-major requirements.

Don't get me wrong; I do think education reform is necessary. A lot of people have criticized textbook prices, and the publishers who profit from what looks to be a reprint and rearrangement of information from edition to edition. Some have criticized selfish administrations for reconciling budget cuts by passing the difference to students, removing liberal arts programs and amenities, and under-staffing educators. On another part there are complaints about the unionization of teachers, particularly those of last generation who have menial academic backgrounds with poor understanding of how to educate.

The ROI of the diploma diminishes unbeknownst to young adults who think they are entitled to a profitable career after giving 4-6 years and tens of thousands in student loans, who think that they cannot participate in any industry except the ones that correspond to their major (but in fact know nothing about the industry or its politics). @Whatusername said it best

Whatusername wrote: School isn't meant to teach you everything. It's meant to give you a foundation and teach you how to learn.

Most employers look at your degree and see it as a testament of your perseverance. Your future careers depend not only on your academic knowledge but your ability to apply the tenets of your education to your prospective position, as well as a continued spirit to learn and critically think outside the typical academic environment.

All in all, OP has a bit of confusion about what it means to reform education but I feel like this is pretty common. Post-grad blues and the quarter-life crisis will run its course though, and all will be well after several failed internships and rejections.

Whatusername wrote:

JackOfAllTrades wrote:

School isn't meant to teach you everything. It's meant to give you a foundation and teach you how to learn.

That is what college is all about. Give you the foundation and the tools.

School teaches you to become a slave for the society. Most millionaires and billionaires don't become rich from the education that they got in the school system. They go out of their way of thinking to make it to the top. While other people who got a college degree to come work for a boss who never graduated from college or even high school.

^ this.

In positions of peak power, most of the time it's a crook that swindled their way into the top, or has pulled off a heist big enough to fool everyone. when you look at the wealthiest people, they are mostly a mix of crooks, villains, and tricksters. no true good person would care about selfish goals to attain fortune at the expense of others. however there are good men of great fortune.

vietboy1st wrote: School teaches you to become a slave for the society. Most millionaires and billionaires don't become rich from the education that they got in the school system. They go out of their way of thinking to make it to the top. While other people who got a college degree to come work for a boss who never graduated from college or even high school.

That first phrase was the biggest BS I've ever read in my life. You've got a point in everything else, though. However, school is not the responsible for one's decisions on 'what they want to be when they grow up', is it? Or what you're gonna do with what you've learnt at school. School is not responsible for ur (lack of) will and initiative to make ur own business or to simply go after your dreams, is it? School is to teach ppl the basic knowledge. Even after u graduate (or even when you're still studying at university), if u want to become a good professional, u must make some extra effort for yourself and read and do researches out of the obligatory readings. How many ppl do that? Nah, many are just too lazy to do that. To become a millionaire, u must make use of the basic knowledge u've learnt at school once, so u can understand further readings that may allow u to become rich. Even the reading itself. If it's someone who learnt everything at home, or learnt with youtube videos, whatever, they've learnt with ppl who once attended school.
Teachers don't make miracles. Each person is the ONLY responsible for deciding what to do with their lives.
Now when it's about being rich by no 'very respectable' means, well, this person, although rich, may not be really seen as noble, ins't it. I think at least most ppl would agree that having huge amounts of money doesn't compensate a bad (or a lack of) character.
Plus, even millionaires are 'slaves for the society', since to have any - legal - business you must pay taxes for the government.

Student debt in the U.S is about $1.2 trillion . That in itself is testament to how the school system right now is not right.

Then you have the public education system setting classes up at the lowest common denominator so the overall education we receive is poor. Not to mention the false hope we give students by telling them all they're tailored for school.

When I return to university in the fall I would not be surprised if the books for my classes (about 5) cost me around $800.

So yes things need to definitely need to change.

vietboy1st wrote: School teaches you to become a slave for the society. Most millionaires and billionaires don't become rich from the education that they got in the school system. They go out of their way of thinking to make it to the top. While other people who got a college degree to come work for a boss who never graduated from college or even high school.

This isn't 100% true and is really far more of a complexity. yes that's a bit of an "academic response" but it's also a way of saying if you look at "resources" vs. money where resources takes into the account advantages ranging from living in school districts with "superior schools" to other advantages ranging from technology support, you'll find that the majority of people who are rich as a percentage are inheritors of wealth. If you look at economist figures, the top 5% of the income gap, the advantages they typically enjoy are

• better educational systems
  
• better access to tools and resources
  
• educational models built less around standardization
  
• opportunities that allow for advancement due to lower economic burdens
  
• lower percentage of domestic abuse and/or unstable domestic environments

The general idea is that if you take two subsets of groups with one coming from a more economically advantaged family and background versus less, those with less have fewer resources to either compete, invest or "grow capital". If you looked at the Forbes 400 list of billionaires and the amount of analysis its gotten, one way of looking at that report is that 2/3 of the list are individuals have inherited or received an amount of $1M or more in growing or investing their capital. Of the remaining 1/3 that were essentially not "born into riches", the majority of them, over 70%, the 2 features that stand out the most are educational background (having earned or attempted to earn a degree in an advanced area of study such as computer science, programming or engineering) and their ages of being over 50.

You can add more factors to get a better picture but the general trend that people point at is that a lot of the "power elite" of society have had the resources to allow them to start on a more advantageous path in life; they could choose internships, advancement programs and rely on attendance at prestigious schools as well as receive superior tools and resources to benefit their position in life. This also meant even the smartest student have to make concessions that can impact their future earning and ability to be economically mobile; do you pick an internship or a part-time job? It's more complicated than this (when is it never) but I also find it dangerous for the idea that "school is a factory".

It's a tool and how you utilize it is part of that function. Alan Mullaly relied on his engineering background in college to eventually rise to being a Ford CEO. His dad was a military member and not one of the highest ranks either. Larry Ellison would be another. The list goes on. If you look at people like Zuckerberg and Trump, you need to remind yourself Trump earned a $1M+ inheritance and Zuckerberg came from a comfortable family background, while not being immensely rich, but able to afford a few hundred thousand to help Mark in creating facebook. Education reform is a problem in the country but it's also a political issue for some more than others: political concerns in the US lead to lower standards in science which is now know to impact other areas such as mathematics [because problem solving is a core approach in science].

I hate wall-o-texts so anyone can always research people like Campbell, Friere and the like. I also like this video too on education:
www.videobash.com/vi...-paradigms-5943